[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:22] Speaker B: Welcome to your life and legacy. I'm your host, Christopher Nudo. And today we're diving into one of life's hardest yet most important subjects, how to find peace and growth in the middle of family conflict. My guest, Rebecca Kutcher knows firsthand how pain can be transformed into purpose.
As the CEO of Oklahoma's Lawyers for Family and Children, she's reimagining how justice can serve compassion through trauma, informed advocacy. Her work restores dignity, hope and healing to families who have faced some of life's most difficult moments.
Rebecca, thank you for joining us.
Let's start at the heart of this. So many families feel trapped in cycles of conflict that never seem to end.
Let's explore what it takes to break that cycle and, and why peace often begins with understanding.
In this segment, let's open the conversation by exploring how conflict, when approached with faith, grace and humility, can be the tool for growth and not division. This is really what you and I were just talking about, right? So unpack for me your practice and how it's so much different by taking these personal moments with people and changing their lives.
[00:01:56] Speaker A: Well, Chris, all conflict is, stems from families not having a good understanding of what's happening around them.
They're in the middle of conflict and it's likely with someone that they have loved and maybe even still do love.
It takes a lot of personal fortitude to be able to continue through that with compassion and clarity.
Um, and you know, many of our families do that and struggle with this as they're trying to, to navigate this new world and teach their children to navigate that new world and maintaining your own personal peace and making sure that you stay rooted and grounded. If you are a person of faith, making sure that you follow those faith practices can make a huge difference in the way your family transitions into a, a new state of life.
It teaches your children skills while that is going on. And most importantly, you've led by example and you've shown your children that the way to live life truly begins with compassion for others. Not taking things personally, understanding that others may have more going on than you realize, more than, more than what meets the surface. We were just at a conference our, our office staff were for yesterday and the day before. And that was one of the big central themes of it is we only get to see the tip of the iceberg. So even someone that you spend your day to day life with, you may not know everything that's going on with them underneath the surface. So engaging with them, with compassion, with care, staying rooted in Your routines, following and treating yourself as you. You want others to treat you, treating them as you want to be treat.
You really do have to put yourself first and you really have to mind your own peace. But you have to treat other people with the same respect and give them the same, the, the same things that you want from them.
It's not about who's doing it right or who's trying to do it perfectly, but if you're trying, I think that resonates even in the times of worst conflict.
[00:04:15] Speaker B: And I think families are the worst, are they not? I mean, I, you know, I always say that there's no such thing as a good family. They're all dysfunctional. You know, my family leading the pack. And you know, and we are the meanest, the least gentle, the, the less, least empathetic with our own family. We're nicer to our friends oftentimes.
Why is this? And really, how should we, how should we change? Like, what should be those talking moments that you help your clients through that to make those cultural changes so we don't repeat the patterns of our parents.
[00:05:00] Speaker A: You know, family conflict, you're right. It cuts so deep. And you know, everyone in your family, they know your history, they know your hopes, they know your insecurities, and they know those old wounds and they know what's going to trigger you and set you off and upset you the most. And, and, you know, oftentimes even small things end up touching layers that had nothing to do with, with what, what we're dealing with today. The, the interaction and the present moment. It really comes from old resentment that we've not resolved and not taken care of.
And we feel that those disagreements are our rejection.
So we, we've got to shift and we've got to understand that there's a better way to do that. Our parents likely didn't communicate well or teach us to communicate well. It's hard to see good examples of that even in the media today.
But it's making sure that you understand you are in charge and control of you and you only.
There's a book called Let Them Be. And in the philosophy behind that is looking. You know, you don't control how somebody receives information. You don't control how they feel in the moment. They may be angry with you. Let them be.
You've got to continue on in your own path. You protect your own peace.
And setting that example and changing that, I think is so very important.
I don't know about anyone else. My mother didn't do conflict resolution very well.
It was either punishment or, you know, mandating rules and talking through and explaining someone's position and why something has to be gives a lot more clarity to a child, lets them understand why something is the way it is and not just, well, because I said so.
So we've got to adopt better habits. And if we model those, then, guess what? Our children learn from that, and they grow from that, and they end up becoming better communicators than. Than we could ever be. So.
[00:07:09] Speaker B: Well, and I think the other side of the coin you really touched on just before this was, you know, we don't know what's going on below the surface. Isn't the saying always that, you know, a duck looks so calm as it's paddling across the pond, but underneath the water, them little legs are going like crazy and, you know, or like the iceberg, 75% of it is under the water. You don't know what's going on underneath. And so what are some of the tools that you've used with families to help people recognize, you know what? It's not all about me, you know, because that's what everybody focuses on. Me, me, me, me, me. I always tell people, if you. If you have to start a sentence with I or me, don't start that sentence. And so how do you get people to recognize the people that are in conflict first before they focus on their own wounds?
[00:08:08] Speaker A: And it's one of the hardest things really to do. Chris, you're.
It usually takes an example where somebody has misconstrued their words or misunderstood them or become angry when that wasn't their intention or didn't know that. That they had something else going on, that they had just experienced a big loss or a big trauma in their life. And using some of the examples that. That you just talked about, talking about how a duck looks so calm and collected on the surface, but you may not know that somebody's barely holding it together and they're. They're practicing and using every tool they've learned and every. Everything they know to stay calm?
And so one slight disruption of the water may. May end up leaving them flying out of it or, you know, the iceberg dead ahead. We. We have to really understand that.
That we have to give each other grace.
We have to extend that grace. And if we want others to extend it to us, then. Then we've got to do it. But it usually takes a very specific example.
It's got to really resonate with the particular client.
It's really hard for them to understand it in in really abstract terms. So you have to get to know your client and some of the things that they have going on in their lives, and then helping them walk through that and, and having empathy for someone else in a similar situation, understanding that, that, you know, we deal a lot with DHS cases, understanding that their DHS workers are human, too. They have kids who are in school and are sick and are, you know, they're. They're humans. They're not just an employee that's there to do things. And, and then it's the reverse. Getting the DHS worker to understand that about a parent that they. And dhs. I mean, Department of Human Services and Child.
[00:09:59] Speaker B: Right. And when that, when that dh. Yeah. When that DHS worker is having a. A bad day, reminding them that, do not take that out on my client. Please think of it. The road goes both ways.
[00:10:10] Speaker A: Absolutely. And so when you teach parents that. When, you know, you have.
When you have DHS workers that understand that. We, we had a wonderful court partner. She's a case manager for our juvenile courts, and she had a time with a parent one day, and he ended up coming up at the end of the day and apologizing to her for his behaviors and for acting out. And he expressed to her, you know, I've been here all day. They. They haven't gotten to my case yet.
I don't have money for the vending machine. And, you know, I, I'm just. I'm really just hungry.
And when she tells this story, she's like, oh, as soon as he said that, I was like, oh, I can't even imagine. I get totally angry. And, you know, the beautiful thing that came out of that particular situation, our juvenile courthouse with Trader Joe's and keeps a little food pantry now.
[00:11:02] Speaker B: So brilliant.
[00:11:04] Speaker A: This wonderful understanding led to something that's going to help a lot of families because she put herself in that client's position, and she realized that where our courthouses, there's not good access to those things, their vending machines are very limited. And if you don't have money for the vending machine, then there's no other options. And so it really is about creating that. That moment where you can connect to somebody else and put yourself in their situation.
[00:11:28] Speaker B: And I'm sure whatever Trader Joe's put there is much more nutritional than a Snickers bar. No matter how satisfying a Snickers bar is, it is.
[00:11:38] Speaker A: They've been wonderful.
[00:11:40] Speaker B: So we have just a minute left in our segment here, but what are some healthy ways to disagree without really destroying the relationships, it goes back to.
[00:11:52] Speaker A: Not taking it negatively, sitting down and, and starting to understand the other person. You've got to know what belongs to you and what doesn't.
You don't control someone's tone, their timing, if they're ready to talk to you or not.
You really just control you and how you show up.
So you know when people really start understanding that and, and instead of choosing anger, they choose conversation and don't give up. Use, use connecting words, I want to understand or even let's take a break and come back to this.
It doesn't mean that you have to have constant agreement with someone.
You just have to start working through and trying to understand their perspective before you, you cast judgment or even respond. Just listen, sit, listen, listen to their perspective.
It's one of the, the best ways to remove conflict resolution and to remove conflict and to move towards resolution is really going in and listening without, without worrying about what your response is going to be without formulating that in your head, really being present and listening to what the other person's trying to tell you.
And if you don't understand, ask them, you know, do those follow up questions really try to understand where they're coming from and what they, they want you to understand?
[00:13:28] Speaker B: Listening is a very underrated skill that we all could get better at.
Coming up next, we're going to talk about what happens when children are caught in the middle of family change and how parents can help them feel safe, seen and secure through it all.
[00:14:10] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:14:20] Speaker B: Welcome back to your life and legacy. Want more of what you're watching? Stay connected to your life and legacy and every NOW Media TV favorite live and on demand anytime you'd like. Download the free Now Media TV app on Roku or iOS and unlock non stop bilingual programming in English and Spanish on the move. You can also catch the podcast version right from our website, NowMedia TV. From business and family and to faith and inspiration, now Media TV is streaming around the clock. Ready whenever you are.
Welcome back.
I'm here with Rebecca Kusher and in this segment we are focused on one of the most sensitive aspects of family change. Helping children feel safe when their world is shifting.
Rebecca's work has shown that when families go through conflict or transition, children often carry unspoken fears. But with the right care, consistency and faith, parents can create safety in the middle of uncertainty.
This segment explores the practical and emotional ways parents can create stability and reassurance for children during family transition.
We want to really focus on empathy and their routine.
Rebecca, what a incredible topic, right? The safety of children.
And we all know that children inside their heads, they have this movie role playing. And their movie role is based on what their experience, their age, their, you know, their personality type, you know, whether or not they feel safe. Right. All.
And I'm just touching on the factors that are rolling off top of my head.
Help us understand how you create these safe spaces for these kids.
[00:16:34] Speaker A: Well, you have to pay attention to your child. And if you're wondering if your child is struggling, they're going to show it before they say it.
Children really rarely use their words to explain what they're feeling. They don't understand what they're feeling. So they usually communicate through behaviors. And you might see a child who's normally really calm, really peaceful, independent in that that child becomes clingy, or one who's really confident, starts really acting withdrawn or irritable.
And if you're seeing those new behaviors from your child, you need to pause for just a moment.
You shouldn't assume that your child's just being disobedient.
You need to see that that behavior is truly a form of communication. And your child saying, I'm not sure what's going on and I really need somebody to let me know we're still okay.
So when you start noticing those most kids aren't going to just outright answer a question.
You've got to ease into it. And so the first thing is noticing. The second thing is approaching it gently.
So, you know, you seem really quiet lately. Is there something that's. That's on your mind?
And so acknowledging the child and acknowledging that you recognize that behavior without punishing them, lets them know that they've been. Feel that they've been seen and that, you know, it's safe for them to, to talk about what's going on.
You also don't have to solve every emotion your kiddo is having. So don't, don't worry about that. Just let them know that you notice.
[00:18:09] Speaker B: So, you know, and there's so much to unpack in what you said there. The, the.
We know that children, adults too, by the way, but we're focusing on kids here. We love to act out. We sometimes don't do the appropriate thing when we're hurting for various reasons, you know, and so you said, you know, the child is worried about if the child's worried about getting punished. And the root of what's really at issue has to do with the injury they sustained during the family.
I can just see educating those parents as to this is not really who my child is or that's really not who your child is. What you're witnessing is similar to what we just talked about earlier in the earlier segment. It's a hangryism, but it's not food this time that's causing the hangry ism. It's, you know, the lack of stability within the family, I assume.
[00:19:09] Speaker A: No. And it's hurt and it's anger, and it's all the adult emotions that the children haven't learned how to process yet.
[00:19:17] Speaker B: What are some of those things that, you know, parents should be looking for in a struggling child? What are some of those emotional things that, you know, are those red flags?
[00:19:27] Speaker A: You said so you know your child better than anyone else, and if they're not behaving like themselves, there's probably something else going on.
You know, it if a child all of a sudden who's very chatty, just becomes withdrawn and doesn't want to talk anymore, especially when you know that something's going on within your family. So if you're going through a separation or a divorce, if your children have come into state custody or there's been some other third party who now has custody of your child, so if you know something is disrupted in their life, you should assume that they're feeling all of those big emotions and, and not knowing how to, to address them.
Children really follow your lead, too, and they, they mirror the emotional tone that we set.
So you've got to pay attention to them. You've got to stay calm yourself, and you've got to make sure that you're not punishing them when they tell you what's going on. It's really important that they don't feel isolated.
And so just, just those little ways of asking, recognizing that there's something going on, but not pushing them to an answer is going to really help build that safety in that child's mind. And for them to start unpackaging how they're feeling, letting them know it's okay to be angry. And, you know, we keep emotions charts around here.
Tell us about that.
Yeah, no, tell what you're feeling and what that manifests as.
[00:21:01] Speaker B: So, and is an emotion chart kind of like, are you angry? Are you sad? Are you not feeling heard? Are you, you know, you know, we.
But, but I mean, I can see a kid taking that, you know, that's real, you know, so I, and I'm, I'm sure that routine and stability.
I know how it, how important it is for me to have a routine for stability for just getting things done in the day, you know, I just need to know how my time planning is. And I'm sure that's very necessary for children to feel safe and secure, that they have a normal routine, something they can count on. How do you guys ingrain that into parents who may not have time management skills or any type of routine that they can depend on themselves?
[00:21:55] Speaker A: And Chris, with our clients, we do start working with the parents on recognizing those executive functioning things, including time management.
That's a big part of success in any case, especially when you're dealing with a parent who's experienced a trauma or a separation or is going through. Through court. Court is not a fun place to be. It is not so stability and routine and instilling that in your children. It's helping show them that, you know, you may not be able to keep the same routine.
You need to try to do that as much as possible because it is so important in a child's life.
But when everything is upside down, you know, children really like predictability.
You've got to communicate with them. If there's one theme that goes throughout all of this today, it's. It's communication and it's communicating well with your child. So when the schedule is going to be changing, just explain the nuclear plan. You know, be really specific with them. You're going to stay with Aunt Lisa tonight and I'll see you before breakfast.
[00:22:59] Speaker B: Or, you know, and explain why. Explain why the routine's going to change.
So you and I talked about how God is at the center of you and your husband. You've come to the Catholic faith during your marriage and prayer. And faith is just the root of so many people's lives. It's the foundation, mine included, where without God, we have nothing. And so does faith and prayer come into your practice with these families?
[00:23:41] Speaker A: You know, every person's religious beliefs have to be foundational to them, and we would never want somebody to feel like they have to change those positions. We do share our stories and what gives us peace. And whether you call it prayer or meditation, it really is that time of self reflection, it is that time of forgiveness, and it's that time of renewal. So I know for many parents, prayer really becomes a grounding practice for them, it's really a moment that they get to release all of their worries and refocus and recover.
For children, you know, it's. It's part of that routine. If you make it a routine in their lives, you may not know what you want to pray for or how to pray when things are so turned upside down. But we Try to teach people at all levels to start with gratitude and to be thankful for what's going on and you've made it through another day.
Children notice when you start becoming more peaceful.
They see how you turn fear and uncertainty into calmness. And so family faith moments really don't have to be big elaborates, spectacles, just a short reflection before bed, sharing an expression of gratitude and what you've been thankful for in the day or just sitting there quietly together.
So when you do those types of things, you're going to restore calm for everyone. And faith gives, gives us guiding principles for that. So it's easier when you're following something that's faith based because there's a built in structure to it. It invites that steadiness. It turns uncertainty into reflection and your reflection into your peace.
So we, we share our path and our story and what's worked for us. And we think that that's important.
Families need to see that, that other people have experienced trauma in their lives. Other people have, you know, certainly endured conflict and really tough times and it makes them not feel so alone in what they're going through. So when you're able to do that and then tell them the ways that you've been able to overcome that and what's worked for you, it gives them that option to self explore and figure out what works best for them.
[00:25:53] Speaker B: What, what made you and your husband really dive into this area? I mean, you're a family law lawyer in some of the most difficult areas of the law, dealing with family and family in crisis.
So what was the turning point for you guys to say? Listen, there is a need here and we are the people to fill it.
[00:26:19] Speaker A: Well, and what we haven't told your viewers today is my, my husband Wesley, who would love if you would call him Wesley. Crusher.
[00:26:26] Speaker B: Crusher. Yeah.
[00:26:30] Speaker A: We're both attorneys, we're both in the same area of law and we both come to it very naturally. So we both grew up in households that experienced really horrific domestic violence, households that endured poverty, households where there was substance abuse and mental health concerns.
And you know, not many people have ever heard of the adverse childhood experiences and what that looks like.
It's 10 simple questions. But it, it dictates or, or makes those predisposed to so many outcomes in life.
It's something that we've started talking about a lot more openly. We both overcame those traumatic childhoods, we had a lot of positive experiences, built a lot of resilience, had a ton of positive support. But I'm a ten on an aces scale. I moved out on my own a week before my 17th birthday and lived on my own my senior year of high school. Then I went through undergrad and law school and I worked for my sister, my older sister's husband, who is an attorney.
And my husband, you know, his childhood wasn't quite what mine was, but they certainly still had domestic violence and other issues in that home.
I knew I wanted to be an attorney from the first grade. He didn't, he didn't quite know that.
But, you know, I had a drive to do this. I had a drive to fight injustice. I had a drive to change circumstances. And that's been something that's been part of my life, whether it was in private practice or coming here to do it. For those who don't have as much.
[00:28:04] Speaker B: For those who want to connect with your organization, what is the best way for them to connect with you?
[00:28:10] Speaker A: Certainly so impactlfc.org is a very easy way to get a hold of us. If somebody wants to send an email there, we'll make sure that the right person gets in that and responds to it. Our website, www.olfc.org, we're all on social media and various social media handles.
You know, I'm on there there personally. The organization's on there. And so in whatever ways somebody wants to connect, we would certainly, would certainly be happy to share what we're doing and how we're doing it.
[00:28:42] Speaker B: Fantastic. Up next, when families turn to court for resolution, it doesn't have to mean war. We'll explore how mediation can bring peace, dignity and fairness. Back to family conflict.
[00:29:02] Speaker A: Sam.
[00:29:31] Speaker B: Welcome back to your life and legacy. I'm joined again with Rebecca Kutcher, and this time we're talking about one of her specialties, mediation.
Legal battles can often feel like a war zone, but mediation offers family, families a way to find peace, understanding and closure without tearing each other apart. It's not just about resolving cases. It's about restoring relationships. In this segment, we're going to highlight how mediation empowers families to communicate openly as a resource and build trust, turning potential conflict into mutual understanding.
Mediation for our viewers. Rebecca, explain to them in simple terms the difference between taking something through a normal court case channel versus what mediation is.
[00:30:30] Speaker A: Well, Chris, it's really comes down to in a courtroom, a judge is going to be the one making decisions for your family. In mediations, you make the decisions with one another.
And in my opinion, that, that that difference alone just changes everything and changes the complete dynamic of it.
Mediation is set to come together to find collaborative solutions.
Courts are knockdown, drag out battles where somebody has to win or lose and often both people walk away without being very happy so, or having what they, they truly care about at the forefront of their case.
So you know, we have clients that really want to prove who's right and who's wrong. And you've got to set that mindset aside and really start understanding, understanding maybe what's possible and what you really, what you really want to do.
We have a friend who, who teaches on the subject and she talks about the search, relate, communicate method and how you've got to search and, and see if, if you're the right person to do this at this time, relating to the other person during that and then communicating about what you want, what you want and how it makes you a much more effective, much more effective in mediation and with much, much better outcomes that are going to align with your actual wishes.
[00:31:58] Speaker B: So it sounds to me like mediation in many respects is a healthier option than the traditional courtroom battle.
And we all know, well, our viewers need to always be reminded that courtroom battles are not what we see on NCIS on tv.
They play out much differently in the real world and usually far more destructive. So mediation's a healthier decision. Tell me, what are some of those healthy outcomes that really come from it versus the devastation of a court battle?
[00:32:39] Speaker A: So legal conflicts come with a lot more costs than just the financial cost. But cost of trial is astronomical and not a lot of families can, can, can really afford to be able to do that.
So courts are, are still backlogged. You have some counties and jurisdictions that it may take you a really, really long time to have a hearing set. And if your case doesn't, you know, get resolved in a day, it may get set again three or four months later.
And so you, you have all of that angst and just the, the unknowing that's really, really tough for the families that we represent.
So mediation is going to help families preserve both that peace and their resources. It's going to be faster, it's going to be less expensive and it's really going to keep the focus on the family instead of on the flight. And some folks go through mediation and they think that they, that they've just given up and they've given in and they shouldn't have agreed to that. They could have gotten something better in court.
And it's really been my experience that someone with that position usually is not happy with the outcome that they get through trial.
[00:33:56] Speaker B: Yeah, I can, yeah, because they didn't really understand what it was going to cost them to get what they didn't get during mediation. And then when they do the cost benefit analysis, they realize, you know what, I really didn't gain anything here because for what I gained, it cost me dearly.
So, you know, there's always opposing counsel. Right? You know, you have, and we all know that, us in the legal field all know that. We have our friends that are opposing counsel, but then we have the others.
How is it that you navigate the local attorneys and you know, I'm sure, Rebecca, they know you as the mediation queen, the one who wants to, you know, settle differences appropriately versus grinding them out in the courtroom.
How do you, how do you deal with your colleagues who don't see things your way?
[00:34:55] Speaker A: You know, there are a lot of attorneys who don't believe in mediation. They don't believe in guardian ad litems for children in cases and think that that just increases the expense and bogs things down.
You know, there are a lot of attorneys who thrive on being in the courtroom and really, really enjoy that aspect of it.
And you have to have them try to put themselves in their clients perspective and talk to them realistically about it. You know, it's not like there, there's a lack of work here in Oklahoma City.
So you know, is this case worth really doing that when it's not what's best for, for this family?
And you really have to point out what you think is best for the family and why if the parents, you know, they're, they're going to have to co parent to some extent. Even if one parent gets legal or primary physical custody of the child, if one, the other parent has visitation there, there's still a level of co parenting that exists. And so being able to not drag it out in a long battle, helping teach parents communicate, it really starts as a foundation for that family in our justice system. I believe that it's really important that we put our clients needs above our own.
[00:36:19] Speaker B: Yeah, I think it's our fiduciary duty actually to put our clients before ourselves.
So I can imagine that you have some clients that come in not quite being completely open minded with the concept of mediation.
Although I have this feeling that, you know, with your remarkable reputation, the people who are hiring you know that this is the way, you know, you're kind of known for leading in this direction. But give us an example of, you know, a case that you had where the client came in saying, rebecca, we're going, we're taking this One to the mat.
And we're gonna. Because I'm entitled, I'm due. You have no idea what I've lived through. It's my turn for justice. And where you've been able to turn them around and got them to see that meeting in the middle was more healthier for the family.
[00:37:22] Speaker A: Well, in private practice, I always started out with, well, you can certainly take that route. And I can refer you to some really great lawyers who, that's what they like to do.
But if you want to resolve your case and you want to do it and keep your sanity and keep your peace and guide through that navigation, then, then I'm the right fit for you as an attorney. But if you are bent on not listening, not learning, not trying to reach some resolutions, then I'm probably not the attorney that you want. So I think setting client expectations from the very beginning is a big part of it.
And I mean, I, I can't think of a, an individual case because this played out daily in my private practice.
Everybody wants the bulldog of an attorney. And I'm like, well, then that's not me. If you need to go to court and that's what has to be, then I will certainly advocate for you very effectively. But anytime my friends post on, on line needing to refer someone to, to a bulldog, a real bulldog, then you know, those just aren't the cases that are worth my own piece. Those clients have very unrealistic expectations. They, they think that you're their attack dog instead of your, instead of leading through this. And so I always tried to address that from the very, very beginning. And then, you know, there, there were people who didn't hire me because I didn't hear say the things they wanted to hear.
[00:38:57] Speaker B: Well, and I believe that's very healthy for you and your husband. Right. So, you know, I know that when I choose to take a client that's not a good fit for me, it ends up being a two, two way road. Right. I don't do what they want and I end up with a level of anxiety and disappointment because I'm not living up to their expectations because honestly, it's not who I am. And so I love the fact that you probably have this inner peace.
You stand for who you are. My dad always said, decide who you are and then be that person. And it sounds like that's who really you are. And you and your husband. I love the team of the two of you in what you're doing. You know, we should do this interview next time with both of you. I Think it would be fantastic.
[00:39:57] Speaker A: I'm sure we could get him in here.
[00:40:00] Speaker B: So resolving conflict peacefully, really, I believe, is going to build foundations of wisdom within families. We have just a minute here left, but you know how many clients, after all is said and done, come back to you with just a level of joy and gratitude for the way you handle things?
[00:40:25] Speaker A: Many do. And especially once they finally.
Once they finally start seeing the benefits of the advice that they're given. It takes practice, and it takes a lot of practice, and you have to reinforce those, those practices daily. So, you know, behavior changes takes a long time.
You have to first recognize a behavior and then you have to. To work through it. But once clients have finally, finally managed to do that and they understand that if you. You choose peace that you then choose possibility in your life, it. It's astonishing and life changing to hear them start talking about it.
[00:41:10] Speaker B: That's fantastic.
When we return, Rebecca and I will explore how the way we handle conflict today can shape the legacy we leave for the next generation.
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Well, we're closing today's episode with Rebecca Kutcher. And in this final segment, we're talking about legacy.
Not just about the kind we leave in assets or accomplishments, but the one we build through love, forgiveness, and the examples we set.
Our children learn how to love, forgive, and handle conflict by watching us. So much is taught versus caught, or is it caught versus taught? And we have to work on that one. So the question becomes, what kind of legacy are we showing them?
This final segment focuses on generational healing. How modeling, grace, communication, and forgiveness creates a ripple effect that shapes family culture for years to come.
Wow. That's a lot. That's all I can say. Rebecca, We've talked about how your approach with mediation is different because we're trying to really heal the family in what you're doing.
And so this conflict that you're battling through, that comes to the healing.
How have you seen it reflected in the children? I'm sure, you know, you've seen children Grow up. Have you had any situations where the kids have come back and you're just like amazed at how a very dysfunctional family is just now normally dysfunctional.
[00:44:19] Speaker A: You know, I started in this field back in 2003 and working as my brother in law's legal assistant and office manager. And so being able to see kids who were part of that original caseload who are now parents themselves and, and have kids that have, that are, you know, in school and thriving, it. It's been such an absolute joy to start seeing that and to start seeing how intergenerations are starting to, to really start to change.
When you know, one particular family, they would come running in, the little girls had dance to our office and they would come in with the paper when they were in, you know, superintendent's honor role and doing well. And so they would come in and share their accomplishments with us. And I love that to cheer that family on and be, be so happy for them.
Writing admission letters for them to go to college and then now, now seeing them as they embark on that has been.
[00:45:29] Speaker B: And any of them become local lawyers.
[00:45:31] Speaker A: I haven't seen anybody go to law school yet and I usually try to dissuade people from that.
It is not for the faint of heart and it's not for everyone. But you know, I've not seen anyone take, take that passionate step yet.
[00:45:50] Speaker B: No, but I, you know what, I could just write the story, Rebecca, where, you know, one of those children much like you in first grade and wanted to become a lawyer. You know, once you get the burn, once you have the desire, you know, whether you and I think it's the right path, you know, here we are and you know, I wouldn't change my direction. The Lord leads and if that's the direction, I can see one of them working for you today actually taking the reins from you and your husband and passing on the legacy of the. What you guys have built yourselves. What a story that would be.
[00:46:27] Speaker A: We love engaging with. With law students and teaching them this part of the practice as well.
So it's not just those that we've been involved in their lives through representing their families, but, but certainly those who. Who cross our doors, we want them to understand our love of the law and why it means so much to the families that we serve.
[00:46:50] Speaker B: Do you, do you and your husband pour into or have any programs with the local law schools with regard to mediat.
[00:46:59] Speaker A: Not for mediation. So the, the organization Oklahoma Lawyers for Families and Children, we have various different practices come through. So we have undergraduate interns law student interns.
And then we, we also have some medical residents that are, are placed in our organization for this year. This is our second year to do that.
And it's incredible to see how all of them bring something unique to what we do and a unique perspective to how we represent families in this system.
And so as we embark, OLAFC started new programs in July and started a sliding scale model and pro bono model that is unique here in Oklahoma. And as we've done that, we've been gathering input. I had wonderful law student interns all summer long. They were here for 90 hours. I had two separate ones. And, and they have done so much research for us. They've done so much compilation of material for us. It's been incredible to engage with, with our law schools.
[00:48:05] Speaker B: That's fantastic. So you say. And medical students come through.
Does OFC have on staff more than just the traditional lawyer accompaniment, meaning lawyer with support staff?
Do you guys offer, you know, more of the medical, not medical, but more emotional side of things or it's. Is that just resource that you know is at your fingertips should families need it?
[00:48:36] Speaker A: We have case coordinators and resource coordinators that function as part of the legal team. So attorney client privilege connects. We've been working to get an MSW program together.
[00:48:50] Speaker B: What is, what is that? What's msw?
[00:48:52] Speaker A: Master level social workers.
[00:48:54] Speaker B: Oh, wonderful.
[00:48:55] Speaker A: And, and have them where they can come in and help parents.
I was very blessed up until about a year ago to have a master level social worker who was also an attorney. So she was a JD MSW and she mostly served in her MSW role.
So she got a lot of things together for us. But she's now retired. Her husband had a stroke years ago and so she's at home with her husband now. But it was incredible having her on staff. And unfortunately there were some budget cuts last year to the Victims of Crime act of the VOCA Fund that that meant that she was ready to retire. And we haven't been able to refill her position yet.
So we, we want to bring that aspect back. But she did a great job training our staff. We this year have several staff members that will be going and becoming tbri which is trauma based reintegration therapies and becoming, becoming trained and certified to train in that TBRI therapy. So we, we try to recognize that there's a lot in this world we're dealing with humans and human emotions and that that's unique.
We deal with people, like I said, who, who oftentimes are at their very Very worst. And who really want the change and really want the resource and they really want the guidance and it's really trusted. When it comes internally from, from their lawyer. They build so much trust in their lawyer. And I don't think that they always have the same trust when they're, they're having to wait six months to even get an intake.
Mental health services are not, not where they should be here in Oklahoma.
[00:50:43] Speaker B: Oh, I think that's, that's true everywhere.
[00:50:46] Speaker A: Yeah. But if we can bridge some gaps and, and put them with the right materials to get them self guided and self started, that's certainly what we want to do.
We do that in a, in a new program that we're doing as families leave the foster care system.
So if families are in trial reunification or pre adoptive placement, we engage with those families with monthly enrichment activities for children.
They get some social and emotional learning skills built in.
We get to observe the families and start seeing what we think that family would benefit from receiving and making sure that they have access to those things.
So we got to start that in August and it's been a really fun program that has had more engagement than I would have would have ever anticipated in returning games engagement. So we hope to keep those families engaged long after the system ends. And it's providing support and just treating them like they're part of the community that they live in. And so it may not be a formal social support, but it is, it is certainly making them be part of a community and being a positive influence in that family's life.
[00:52:02] Speaker B: Well, it's definitely filling a gap where a gap exists in the broken system.
Which makes me wonder, you know, we have. Oklahoma is just one of our states and you serve probably. I don't even know if you fill the whole state and so have you.
Are there other organizations that you guys partner with throughout the United States or are you part of other mentoring organizations? Or should we start talking about now how we branch Oklahoma lawyers for families and children out 50 times?
[00:52:41] Speaker A: Well, and we've changed drastically in just a very short period of time. So three years ago we were Oklahoma lawyers for children and we adopted a family advocacy model that year.
Later that year I assumed this role. I moved off from board chair and formally came into the day to day management of this as their CEO.
And through that we took on an aspect of managing parent contract attorneys as well as our child representation program.
And our state has had some wonderful changes. We've had some laws enacted that are working to provide support and additional compensation to court appointed attorneys that didn't exist before and statewide management of all of those attorneys.
And so OFC had to say, where do we fit in this role and what do we think we need to do moving forward?
Our board got together and decided to embark on this pro bono and sliding scale model. We now can take representations that are outside of the deprived case. We were in two counties. We are now in 14 primary counties with, with five secondary counties. Oklahoma has 77 counties total. But we are really throughout the central Oklahoma area.
That's where our resources are. We've received wonderful funding from the Bar foundation to be able to do this project next year. They've supported us and fully funded our grant proposal to them.
So now we get to start doing this new model of holistic advocacy where we get to really take what's wrong with traditional court appointed attorneys, traditional legal aid models, where they pair one attorney with one problem and we pair one attorney with one human. And it doesn't matter if you have cases in three counties, you have three different types of cases.
One attorney is the one that is advocating for you. We have our case support for those attorneys and make sure that administratively they're supported well and, and get letting them do their job of being lawyers and making sure that the administrative functions are handled for them. So we think that it's a very unique model. We started it July 1st. We've been soft piloting it the last what now four months.
And the amount of public interest and public support has been absolutely incredible. So we hope to start getting outside of Oklahoma and being able to show what we think is the right way to handle family advocacy and representing families that are going through a divorce, having their children taken into custody or any other matter that's going on, we can now represent those who are above the poverty scale.
So traditional legal aid models stop at 125% of the poverty level. If you make 130% of that, can you really afford an attorney? And the answer is no.
So we're able to come fill that gap and either do pro bono or sliding scale, meaning that parents or families get to pay less than what they would traditionally with attorney, get better payment plans structured. And we're able to do that from our community support and the funding that we've received.
[00:56:13] Speaker B: That's fantastic. And clearly through your leadership and really heart for the family, tremendous things are in your future.
Rebecca, thank you so much for sharing your heart and your mission with us today. For families who want to learn more about the Oklahoma Lawyers for families and Children or get support.
Where again can they reach out?
[00:56:37] Speaker A: They can email
[email protected], visit our website, which is www.olfc.org, or find us on social media.
[00:56:50] Speaker B: Wonderful. Rebecca, it's been a blessing to have you on the show today. You've reminded us that legacy isn't just about what we leave behind. It's about how we love and lead into the present.
To our viewers, remember this peace doesn't mean the absence of conflict. It means the presence of grace.
The choices you make in your home today can echo for generations. I'm Christopher Nudo, and this has been your life and legacy. Until next time.
Live with purpose, love with compassion, and leave a legacy that truly lasts.
